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Religion in Scouts/Guides

If you’re looking for the response from Girl Guides Australia, click here to skip down.

The Issues

In Late 2007 the subject of Paganism in the Scouting movement was raised by some Pagans that believed that their beliefs were not accepted by the movement. The subject was raised with our Senior High Priest because they knew him through the Scouting movement and therefore felt he would be able to assist. Due to his involvement in Scouts he requested that the matter be dealt with by other UPCoA representatives and that he be left out of the matter, although he did make a brief submission of his own to bring the concerns to the attention of the Scouting officials.

In response to these concerns UPCoA investigated and asked a few more people that were involved in the movement and who followed a Pagan path what their feelings were. Generally the following points of concern were identified by a number of Pagan Scout members:

  1. The fact that many kids are told they MUST recite “Amen” as part of their prayers, even if the child objects;
  2. The fact that only mainstream religions were recorded on a member’s record even if the member listed Pagan (or other religion) on their membership forms;
  3. The fact that only Christianity, Judaism and Islam are represented on the panel of Scout (NSW) religious advisers;
  4. The fact that if events are held on Christian holy days alternate arrangements are usually included to accomodate those Scouts that are Christian, but no such arrangements for other religions (not just Pagan);
  5. The absence of Chaplains in the Scouting movement that cater for anything other than the mainstream faiths.

To many people these seem minor or insignificant, but some people feel strongly about these and that is their right.

Contact with Scouts

In late 2007 we sent an email to Scouts NSW and Scouts Australia outlining the above concerns that had been raised by some Scouting members. We SUGGESTED that the following would help to resolve any issues and assure all Pagan Scouts that the movement does indeed recognise and accept their religion:

  1. EITHER, remove Amen from prayers, OR, make Amen an OPTIONAL prayer ending rather than compulsory. This would need little more than a memo to Leaders to say that IF a member does not wish to recite Amen then their wishes should be respected.
  2. Record a member’s actual religion, if supplied, in the membership database.
  3. Take into account significant religious holidays from ALL significant religions when planning events or activities, rather than only considering Christian holy days.
  4. Appoint or endorse advisers and Chaplains from other religions, including Buddhism, Hindu and Pagan.

We received NO response for several months, so a second email went out. Once again we received no response at all, so a much stronger worded message went to Scouts Australia, the Governor-General (as Chief Scout), and the World Organization of Scout Movements (WOSM). In hindsight this message may have been too strong, however it was only sent after we had tried twice to make contact with no response.

Confirmation - Pagans not welcome in Scouts

In June 2008 our Senior High Priest, who by the way had not been involved in the above submissions and emails, received a document from an Assistant Chief Commissioner of Scouts NSW. He was told that this document was prepared by the Assistant Chief Commissioner as a briefing note for a senior Commissioners meeting, and that it reflects current Scouts Australia National policy on religion in Scouting. The document stated:

  1. THE PAGAN RELIGION is not one of the religions that meet our monotheistic (one God) belief criteria. In that amongst adherents are those who are Polytheistic (more than one God) or atheistic (no God) believers. Thus Pagan as a Religion, whilst it may be accepted by the Government, is not accepted by us for membership. However some of its members, who believe in only one God, meet our membership criteria and therefore eligible to be considered for membership. It all hinge [sic] around if they can take the promise and believe in a God or a Supreme Being [emphasis added by UPCoA]

  2. ATHEIST cannot join scouts. They believe there is no God or Supreme Being.

    Pagan Websites also embraced atheists as members of the Pagan Religion. Remember well, just because parents believe one thing a youth member can have their own individual belief.

  3. AMEN: Lexicographers agree that the word AMEN is an expression of concurrence or assent and not religiously based. The literal meaning is ‘it is so’ or ‘so be it’ (often said after a prayer, creed or other formal statement, these terms are also common to many different non-Christian religions including, we are told, various branches of the Pagan religion.). The majority of dictionaries in defining amen don’t even mention the word Christianity, those few that do, it is as more of a casual aside in their examples.

    It is found in many religious texts including the Koran (Quran). The people who do use the word amen include the Bedouins and other Arab tribes, Hindus, Jews, Tibetan Monks, Islamic believers, just to mention a few of the non-Christian.

    There is also the common usage by the general public with the phrase “amen to that”.

Also contained in this document is the following statement:

This is especially true of Scouts where ‘religion’ is not a requirement for membership our requirement is based upon a ‘belief in a single God or Deity’. [emphasis added by UPCoA]

Our SHP was understandably upset at this news and, initally tendered his resignation from the movement as he felt this discriminated against his polytheistic beliefs. Due to overwhelming support this decision was changed, however it seems that the reputation of our SHP and the UPCoA has been adversely affected by the comments that have come from some outside people.

Submission for Change

In light of the above information, the UPCoA investigated the view of the World Organization of Scout Movements (WOSM) on religion. Interestingly we found the following comments on religion in Scouts:

“One of the three main principles of Scouting is "Duty to God". However, the word "God" can mean different things and nobody has the right to impose his or her concept of God on other people.” (emphasis added).

“In the constitution of the World Organization of the Scout Movement, you can find the following definition of "Duty to God":

"Adherence to spiritual principles, loyalty to the religion that expresses them and acceptance of the duties resulting therefrom."

There are three parts in this definition: (1) adherence to spiritual principles, (2) loyalty to the religion that expresses them and (3) acceptance of the duties resulting therefrom.

I think that any believer, including Buddhists, can agree on this definition.”

With these comments in mind we lodged our official request for Scouts Australia to revoke the national policy restricting membership to only monotheistic religions. After receiving no response for some time, we finally received notice in July that the Australian Chief Commissioner of Scouts Australia would be seeking the view of the World Scouting Conference in Korea regarding Pagans in Scouting.

Final Decision

After receiving no further response since the above notice, in November 2008 UPCoA once again contacted Scouts Australia. We were told that the matter was scheduled for discussion at the upcoming National conference.

Finally, in a letter dated 1 December 2008, Mr John Ravenhall, Chief Commissioner Scouts Australia, responded to all concerns raised by us in prior correspondence. The letter is 2 pages long so we will not include the full text here, however the basic view of Scouts Australia on the subject is presented below.

In his letter, Mr Ravenhall advises:

I apologise for the delay in giving a clear, but positive response, but there were matters that needed to be clarified and communicated.

You will be well aware that there have been misconceptions about the Pagan faiths in the community, including the Scout community.

The matter was discussed by the Branch (State / Territory) Chief Commissioners at their meeting in November.

And,

In the light of the WOSM policy, to which we definately subscribe, I am pleased to convey that there is no objection to members of the Pagan church being members of Scouts Australia.

In response to some other matters raised, the following responses were given:

The manner in which a member’s religion is recorded, if at all, in each Branch is a matter for that Branch to decide. Where religion is stated, there is no objection to “Pagan” being indicated.

(currently in NSW Pagan religions are listed on a member’s record as “other”, and the initial response from NSW advised that Scouts had no desire to change)

And,

Regarding the word “amen”, as Dr. Bateman has stated, this is an expression of concurrence or assent “so be it”. It is used by many religions and in a reasonably common non-religious expression “amen to that”. No one is “forced” (or should be forced) to use it, or not use it.

(you may recall that the initial reply from NSW advised that Scout policy dictated that Amen must be used as part of the prayer, and disciplinary action may be taken against any Leader trying to teach youth that they need not use the term if they so desired)

We would like to thank John Ravenhall for this response which now, hopefully, opens the way to educate Scout Leaders that have been treating Pagans poorly. If anyone is in such a position we would encourage them to speak with the Leaders and, if no success, contact us and we will send through some general educational material that will hopefully resolve the problems.

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Girl Guides Response

Way back when we first sent our initial request to Scouts, a similar letter, primarily advising of the Pagan religions, was sent to the Girl Guides Australia. On 8th August 2008 the UPCoA received a reply from Lynne Price, Chief Commissioner of Girl Guides Australia, to our letter regarding religion in Guides.

In her reply, Mrs Price says:

The Policy on Religion as cited in Guide Lines which is the ‘Policy, Organisation and Rules’ of Girl Guides Australia simply states that “Girl Guides Australia expects all members to acknowledge spiritual and personal responsibility to search for, and live according to, a spiritual dimension greater than themselves.”

With regards to the “Duty to God” principle, the letter points out that WAGGGS Policy states:

“Duty to God is to acknowledge spiritual principles and the personal responsibility to search for and live according to a spiritual dimension greater than the human being. This spiritual dimension is not tied to acknowledged religions or religious institutions, but is rather an inner conviction that something bigger than mankind exists, a conviction that shapes the character and influences actions in a positive way.”

Those reading the previous pages on this will recall that one of the concerns was members being forced to recite “Amen” even if their religious beliefs did not include the use of this term. To date Scouts Australia NSW has defended the use of Amen claiming that it is appropriate for all religions to use this term. In contrast the Girl Guides Australia advised:

Members are certainly not required to recite ‘Amen’ if this is not part of their own religious ceremonies. In fact we are finding few Units are using traditional prayers in Ceremonies but rather the Leaders are encouraging their Guides to identify inspirational and motivational thoughts, readings and stories to share with others or even to write their own. Training for ‘Guides Own’ encourages a multifaith approach and it would be extremely rare for a prayer with ‘Amen’ to be used...

Summary

It is our opinion that Girl Guides Australia has an extremely well balanced and tolerant outlook on religion, and is well positioned to teach their youth tolerance of all religious beliefs, including Paganism. The fact that ‘Amen’ is not a compulsory part of any prayer, and that ‘Duty to God’ is taken to simply mean a belief in something bigger than mankind, would seem to indicate that this organisation has already carefully considered the views and feelings of those members following one of the lesser known religions and adapted the various policies and procedures accordingly.

The UPCoA thanks Girl Guides Australia for having such an accepting view on religion. It is clear evidence that “Duty to God” can indeed include non-monotheistic beliefs and the term “Amen” is not as widely accepted regardless of religion as the Scout Association would have us believe. We can only hope that other organisations learn from the Girl Guides example.

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